narutofanonfandomcom-20200222-history
Talk:Artificial Human — Formation Ino-Shika-Chō
How can they copy Hiden? Hiden aren't purely genetic. Most are a product of specialized training, such as a regiment of chakra transformation training, shape manipulation training, or augmentations that are applied to the body after birth. Basically, things that can't be copied, since they are derived from either skill or modification. Chrono Nexus (talk) 19:22, June 18, 2013 (UTC) : Its the same idea as the cellular DNA from Dragon Ball Z, as that's what its based on. Memory of techniques are lodged within the user's genetic make up, thereby allowing others who obtain this DNA to learn it. The same is shown in Hashirama's DNA, in which Obito can use his techniques (Wood Release: Cutting Technique), or Madara, who can use all of his techniques, without having actually learned them, or no other way to have learned them. 19:37, June 18, 2013 (UTC) : Howdy Ten, : Sorry for intruding, but I must say that while the idea is pretty creative and thought provoking, he would still have to undergo the necessary training to actually use the desired hiden. While he would possess the knowledge on how to do the techniques, he would be incapable of doing them because his body simply isn't ready and "hotwired" to use them. In fact, it took Shikamaru years to even use his own hiden and he most certainly possessed a lot of knowledge on the actual technique, but his body simply wasn't "hotwired" to use it. It's like Ginyu inside of Goku's body. While he knew his power, he simply couldn't utilize it, because he personally didn't train to master it along with the fact that he probably would hurt himself when trying to use it. Though, it could be argued that he didn't possess knowledge on the technique, I believe that even if he did know about it, he still wouldn't be able to use it. You know? Anyway, it's your call. I like the idea personally. User:Beserkchart486 19:05, June 18, 2013 (UTC) :: You're thinking of it wrong. Its more like Cell than Ginyu. The body is hardwired to use it. Its programmed in. Think the Androids. That's the idea I'm basing the whole Artificial Human bit on. Cell knew how to use each of the Z Fighter's techniques right from his birth, and could preform them with as much potency, if not more, than they were capable of. 23:18, June 18, 2013 (UTC) I'll add in that hiden do typically require either physical training or chakra training, or artificial augmentations. A body doesn't simply sprout holes for beetles, or the ability to expand parts of the body, nor does one spontaneously gain the ability to read minds or control others through their chakra, or manipulate shadows. Other Hiden require special training like the inuzuka and their nindogs, or the Hyuga and their fighting style. It doesn't follow that memories are stored in DNA, or else Yamato would have possessed Hashirama's memories, as would Madara and Orochimaru. Such an assumption doesn't bear out in science, nor in what's been shown from canon. A hiden that spontaneously arises from "genetic memory" isn't a hiden, it's called a kekkei genkai. Chrono Nexus (talk) 00:26, June 19, 2013 (UTC) :: Actually, it is shown in Madara and Orochimaru. Both of them inherit their host's techniques and kekkei genkai. Science really doesn't mean two flips in anime, so I don't know why you even bother bringing it up. Kishimoto admitted that he lacked scientific knowledge, so his universe wouldn't reflect it. Again, using DBZ logic here. But, if you want to go with science; depending on the type of cell scientifically, it is possible for the cells to retain memory of events and actions that take place in life. Its called cellular memory, and it is an ongoing scientific theory that actual memories, as well as physical memories (called body memories), can be stored in the cells and DNA of the body. You're talking to a med student here. I know my shit. 00:31, June 19, 2013 (UTC) ::: EDIT: For example, there is actual scientific evidence that people with organ transplants can receive "visions" stored in the cells of the organ they are receiving, which are actual memories from the original owner of the organ. Again, its a hypothesis, but the theory itself has some good science behind it. You should look it up some time, its really interesting. 00:35, June 19, 2013 (UTC) :::: Well, I believe the case for Madara is that he was so used to watching Hashirama preform those techniques and he simply memorized them using his Sharingan. I highly doubt that he just retained the memories, you know? Anyway, cellular memory isn't supported enough to actually be considered "true". I'm working in a Biological Lab focused on Cell Mechanics and I've heard mention of this, but it doesn't seem like it is actually well supported to be true. However, you may be correct! I honestly don't know. You're an actual med student and I'm just working in medical graduate school for the Summer dealing with labs and ish. Either way, you're more experienced. Oh and for Orochimaru, you have to remember. He basically absorbs them into his being. They become one with him, lol. That's a bit different from what is happening here, in a sense. User:Beserkchart486 20:05, June 18, 2013 (UTC) Well, that's fine. Since we seem to be at an impasse with biology, let me defend this point using chemistry. And rest assured, I won't drop any theory or concept names here; just a simple summary of ideas that I believe would be commonplace for anyone with a general high school education. I'm sure you know that the brain works, in the most simplest explanation, by chemical interactions. Personality, bodily functions, thoughts, and even memories are the result of either instinctive or conditioned chemical occurrences within the brain. As with vital organs, blood courses through them. And it is because of this that everything in the body works as cogs in a machine work: together, they complete the system. Cells follow the exact same idea. In fact, since blood itself is abundant with cells, the red blood cells, it works by following the conditioning the mind has placed upon it. Let's make this more simple. Call this "conditioning", a map of how the body works. Now, by moving these conditioned cells into other bodies, it is not a stretch to say that the body will now start to adapt aspects of that "map". Subsequently, we can even go far as theorizing that because of this, the blood itself will cause the brain of this person's body to adopt certain aspects of the conditioning. Personality traits, certain body ticks, and yes, maybe even memories. As Ten said, it is still a theory being pursued, but given that scientists have gone so far as to acknowledge it as a theory, should mean there is more than enough information and justification to say it is possible. I should hope that will appease you. Now back to the whole Ginyu thing. He switched places with Goku's body, but in doing so, his mind was tranferred to. Meaning, all of these instinctive and/or conditioned chemical interactions that were an aspect of his original body, were moved to Goku's body. However, because Goku's body isn't supposed to work like that, the result ended with his power being severely reduced. That should clear that confusing thing right up. Moving on... Actually, in complete contrast to what you were suggesting, Orochimaru absorbing them into his body would be a far more effective way of attaining these characteristics. And no, it isn't different. It's quite actually the same thing. To end this interruption of mine, which I do so apologize for... Beserk, I should hope you'd know that those in the scientific trades never reduce theory to falsity, as you yourself claim to be. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 01:22, June 19, 2013 (UTC) It seems more like errant speculation. Anecdotes about visions or memories puts "cellular memory" on the same level as any other form of mystical thinking. My problem with it, however, is not that it's absurd, or magical thinking. Magical thinking and the Naruto series go hand in hand. My problem is that it isn't consistent with the series OR science. Orochimaru is a genius, and knows more jutsu than any other ninja in the series, many of which he invented himself. Madara had plenty of experience witnessing Hashirama's jutsu in battle, while his sharingan was active. The only thing he was missing to perform them, was the wood release. If learning hiden were as simple as injecting cells, who would even bother with training? The most compelling evidence that Hiden and memories aren't passed down, is that the ninja villages would have exploited this to teach their genin every technique and hiden of their village. S-ranked genin would abound. This is obviously not the case. Chrono Nexus (talk) 01:25, June 19, 2013 (UTC) :It isn't that simple. In fact, just "injecting cells" could prove to be dangerous as the body may reject them in a violent manner. It takes an extremely skilled master of the medical arts. Or, as you said, a genius like Orochimaru. It'd also take a mind willing to betray morals, like Orochimaru, who was quickly hunted down by Konoha's ANBU for his experiments. So no, the villages would not have done so, mainly because it'd be against their pride as Shinobi but more importantly, they most likely lack the abundance of genius that would allow for such experiments to be carried out successfully. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 01:35, June 19, 2013 (UTC) :::The most memory DNA could provide is muscle memories, I believe. Logically, past memories would be stored in the cerebral cortex as you know. And I wasn't reducing theory to falsity, but I simply meant it in a way that you really shouldn't jump back onto a theory which is still in development and can truly go either way. Like I said, I'm not an absolute expert. Considering my age, it's a miracle that I know anything about it. Anyway, Orochimaru is able to retain these people abilities because they are not his own body, but he instead transfers his soul into their body. I think he overlaps their soul with his and then they become one with him, hence the reason he has so many souls still with him, seen when he tried to take over Sasuke. Anywho, I'm pretty sure that the Artificial Clone doesn't do that. In addition, you have to note that for the artificial clone to be able to use the hiden, he'd need a lot of the person's memory and I'm assuming that the cellular memory theory means that memory is transferred in bits, not memory about entire techniques and oral traditions. User:Beserkchart486 21:33, June 18, 2013 (UTC) ::I have no problem with it in practice. It's no more outlandish than some of the releases we see. But I think just regressing Hiden and specialized training to "cell or genetic memory" steals something of value from the series. It cheapens the accomplishments of the characters. Chrono Nexus (talk) :::I can agree with that. But, Chrono, this isn't something meant to empower a character. This is meant to create an artificial, seemingly superior, being to serve as villains in Ten's story. I don't see how the cheapening argument even applies here. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 01:48, June 19, 2013 (UTC) Instead of using science, I'll just use actual canon to support everything here. And it can all be proven by this: Edo Tensei. How is it that the bodies Kabuto used for the reanimated souls could use the jutsu they could? How did Nagato have his Rinnegan when it was taken back by Obito. How did Itachi have his Sharingan when Sasuke has them? How did Madara have both his Sharingan and Rinnegan while Obito had them? I'll tell you how. Because no matter the biological body's make-up, it will follow the conditions and instincts of the brain - the mind. While such a thing can be debated, due to the complexities of the human body, since this is a world created by an author who doesn't have a strong scientific foundation, we are allowed to make some exaggerations when using scientific principles to prove our points. It is simply how anime and manga has always been. When Orochimaru used Edo Tensei during his fight with Hiruzen, he summoned Hashirama and Tobirama, who could both use their jutsu and kekkai genkai, while the biological body used was Kin and Zaku. And unless Kin and Zaku were now somehow Senju blood relatives all of a sudden, I don't see how scientifically that would be possible. Therefore, the only possible explanation is that the theory that both me and Ten are using to justify the Artificial Human concept does, in fact, have plausible application. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 01:48, June 19, 2013 (UTC) :My answer to that would be, the name. Impure World Resurrection. The spirit is called back into the world from one of the realms of Samsara- which, I am unsure. Hungry ghost, perhaps, given the name and the ritual. A body is given up to the ritual, which is subsumed into the being of the new life. The "yin" or spirit abides within and without the "yang" of the vessel body. In such realms, there is such a thing as residual self image- likely, the process of generating a new body from the remains of the sacrificial corpse, recreates the appearance and traits the spirit retained upon death. Note the Sandaime's age. Chrono Nexus (talk) 02:00, June 19, 2013 (UTC) ::Except, my explanation is more proven by canon than your own theory, though interesting as it may sound. I won't argue this part out since I know you have a greater knowledge of these things than I do, just as I have a greater scientific knowledge of these concepts than those who are arguing on this talk page, save for Ten. However, I must also add that if such a thing is true, why is it that Madara could use the power of Hashirama's cells which were embedded into his reanimated body by Kabuto? His "residual self image" does not account for that. Chrono, I should mention that it seems like you're pursuing any possible venture to disprove this entire concept, which is a pursuit I do not understand. Both myself and Ten have more than sufficiently proven this through scientific fact and canon proof, while you are relying on personally-contrived theories and applying them into the series. While I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, given that there is more than enough proof to justify our explanations, to call us wrong is also an incorrect notion. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 02:18, June 19, 2013 (UTC) :::Except, it isn't supported by canon. And, in fact, I possess more knowledge on these topics than either of you combined. I'll repeat what I said, before. Madara witnessed Hashirama use his wood-release techniques while his Sharingan was active, in his battles against him. He had already copied the techniques. All he was lacking, was the chakra nature to perform them. He already had the knowledge via his sharingan. ::You are twisting a "theory" that basically amounts to nothing but speculation, scientifically speaking. A tiny minority of scientists even consider it a viable theory. It has not been rigorously tested nor proven. Language, memories, and other knowledge are NOT passed through muscle and cellular tissue. Transplanting someone's hand onto another person's wrist, or a blood transfusion, does not transfer these things. This is a well established fact. I did not "personally contrive" buddhism, taoism, or hinduism. Kishimoto draws HEAVILY (heavily!) from the influences in the names of his characters, their techniques, and the logic underlying their uses. They are the source material for just about everything in Naruto. Kishimoto wasn't original when it came to these things; it is, all of it, derivative from earlier cultures and mythologies. It is not a fact, that is how Edo Tensei, works. But it IS supported by the naming convention, how it functions, and Kishimoto's track record for being an unoriginal hack. Chrono Nexus (talk) 02:43, June 19, 2013 (UTC) Yes and if such celluar memory and body memory were present and able to be transferred it would likely be in the form that canon refers to kekkai genkai. You know, where techniques and memories of said techniques are passed genetically? Generally through direct inheritence, the progeny/offspring. You are right though the theory has merit and canon fully supports it--- as kekkai genkai though. --- Illuminate Void (Talk) :Actually Void, not just for Kekkei Genkai but for Clan specialized Hiden techniques as well. There is a theory being very carefully studied within genetics that suggests the experiences of the parents can actually influence the biological mechanics and chemical interactions that occur within the offspring. Thusly, from conditioning themselves to master the Hiden, and these being passed down for years, means that even the Hiden techniques are a part of the clan members conditioning. Meaning that through the aforementioned theory of cellular memory, even the Hiden techniques can be carried over. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 01:56, June 19, 2013 (UTC) Aside from the Canon, The Real Problem From what I can see from this creation; and despite how well I enjoy watching two sides debate - (I'll leave that to you all), is the underlying problem that comes with this creation you've manifested. It's a ploy, cleverly disguised (I use the word cleverly, loosely) to be a plot device or character enhancer. While you may not intend this - it is, what it is. The character, and his enhancements, are a means to give your character attributes, without real effort being put into play. Nor, originality put into play. It pretty much defames the value of the works that have been underway for awhile now, all in a means to create a character that would otherwise, be unable to produce such techniques or attributes on their own. (There are always better means to give your character something unique, and making a subset of The ploy, is to obtain what you desire without much actual work into it. If it's as easy as to just add genetics to a character, and viola, you obtain insta-powers with near perfection/or, better then the very clan users themselves? Why in the world, would we be favoring this as a plot device/character enhancer? There's no quality to the story, there's no interesting features; you just wanted something... so you took advantage of the canon (which, I guess we all do - but there is always those who seek to push these boundaries). :"But he is a work of inspiration, through sources from both within and outside the series". Ummm... let's skip the theatrics shall we? Let's not be optimistic, and lie to ourselves, or well, (I assume it's not lying if you actually believe in yourself, then it's just denial.) Let's skip mincing our words and be straight forward. The problem with this whole "Artificial Human" (just as it is a problem that Kishi has made for his own universe via Zetsu), is that is is a cheap form of power retrieval. We all knew it was from the start, these last arcs have been a game of "Who's got who's genes?". You devalue the power of the characters, clans, techniques, and KG involved via this method you are implementing. Not only that, but the characters on this wiki that have been created to embody the power of these clans, techniques, KG, and so on and on are being devalued as well. It feels like I'm being cheated, that my individual has to go through X and X to attain Y and Z, while you only need to do... whatever the heck this is. :"No I'm not, if anything, this character embodies the strengths of the X, Y, and Z" Eerrrmmm, no. There are better ways to go about doing it. However, you (and Sei), seem to favor a course in which the easiest route, is by far the best. So I'm not sure if there's any point in really arguing over what I'm trying to illuminate, because from what I've seen, it will fall on deaf ears. (You both seem stubborn, and you both don't look like you'll budge. And by the way you both are backing each other up, insinuates that even if the other is wrong, that you'll still support one another. such about friendship and the bonds there-of and other camaraderie). How about giving them backstory to support his current traits? Should that even be allowed? (Featuring these three Hiden in -one- body?) Do we really need this kind of stuff on the wiki? (Yeah, I get it, it's Fanon, let ideas flow free, hippy speech inc.) Why in the world, is this even a discussion? I want to see things that are unique, interesting, involving, and throw me into the emotions of reading about a character! This... this feels lazy and unimaginative. Stop being lazy, be a little more imaginative then just abusing what the canon has handed to you so carelessly into your laps. Sincerely, a concerned user. Inception (talk) 03:18, June 19, 2013 (UTC) : How about this? Its my story. Its my fan fiction. Its not going to interfere with you, nor does it break any of the current policies concerning the relationship of fanon or fan-fiction, so I can do whatever I want with my stories? I have established, as far as I am concerned, the reasons from which I intend to derive my usage of the debated content in my works. So, quite frankly, it isn't up to any of you how I deal with, or use this content, until it interferes with your works. Until that time, I ask you all to kindly stop the irritating bickering, and go back to minding your own business. It is both scientifically and Narutoverse feasible, regardless of other objections to it, which I could, quite frankly, care less about. So, unless anyone else has anything constructive to say, this conversation, is, frankly, over. I will not be replying any further than this. 03:51, June 19, 2013 (UTC) :Yes, I think this discussion has run its course. We all have our opinions about whether or not Hiden can be passed on through tissue/genes, and about the literary value of a story that eliminates skill development. I have no problem with this specifically, I merely contend that the logic underlying it was unsound. But that is certainly not against the rules and so, what's the harm? It is his story. I just wanted to learn what his justifications were for it. My curiosity is satisfied, so I'm moving on. :Chrono Nexus (talk) 10:11, June 19, 2013 (UTC)